Chapter 6
Statements and Testimonies
of Devotees

Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 20:10 AST
From: Denis Harrison<hsauri-freenet.ufl.edu>

Subject: Prabhupada’s birth time and horoscope

Dear Hrishikesananda Prabhu,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Thank you for your communications re: Srila Prabhupada’s Janma-patri. Due to being out of station for twelve days I couldn’t reply until now.

The issue is whether Srila Prabhupada’s birth time was 3.30 p.m. which gives a Sagittarius rising, or 4.00 p.m. or later, which gives Capricorn rising.

Srila Prabhupada and Hari-sauri Prabhu

Here are my comments:

1) TIME OF BIRTH

My personal view of this debate is that we must accept whatever time was given by Srila Prabhupada himself as his true birth time.

I only have two references for this:
a) A letter sent to an astrological researcher from London in December of 1975 who wrote asking for Srila Prabhupada’s time and date of birth. Prabhupada obliged him. “Regarding your question about my birth. I was born September 1, 1896, Tuesday at about 4:00 in the afternoon. My rasi is Mithuna.”

b) Oct 4 1977 I was asked to get a chart done by Ashutosh Ojha in Delhi for Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada had just arrived back to Vrndavana from Bombay and he asked for the chart, with specific denotation of “bad days” in the coming months. Thus Ojha produced the chart, which was based on a birth time of 4.30 p.m. He also did a calculation of prasna, based on the time I asked for the chart, at 11.50 am on 4 Oct. 1977.

As far as the time Ojha used is concerned, I don’t remember whether I gave him that time or whether he already had it. Abhirama prabhu had a chart done by Ojha on August 10, 1977 and he used 4.00 p.m. as the time. In a letter to Tamal Krishna Goswami just after that Abhirama states: “I visited the astrologer and inquired about Srila Prabhupada’s horoscope if it were calculated at 4.30 p.m. or 5.00. He calculated that it would remain the same between the hours of 4.00 & 5.00.”

The above correspondence between Abhirama and Tamal Krishna seems to indicates that whatever time Ojha used, he got from Srila Prabhupada via his secretary Tamal Krishna Goswami. You will have to check with him to verify this. And of course, you can also check with Ojha himself and ask if he remembers how and why he used the times of 4.00 and 4.30 p.m.

2) VERACITY OF THE READINGS

a) OJHA
As it turned out, Ojha’s October charts were very accurate. He predicted extremely difficult times in the coming two-four months.

As it turned out, Ojha’s October charts were very accurate. He predicted extremely difficult times in the coming two-four months.

Quote: “the patient may not recover” “the native will not come up astrologically.”

Of course, Srila Prabhupada in fact did leave us during that period.

b) DR. D. ARKASAMAYAJI—(Curiously Arkasomayaji used 4.00 p.m. but got a Sagittarius rising when in fact it should have been Capricorn.) Dr. D. Arkasomayaji, the astrologer who wrote that Srila Prabhupada was a shaktyavesa avatara, also said that His Divine Grace would pass over the disease without much difficulty and live at least another 7 years.

Quote: “The present illness should be interpreted only as a sort of exhaustion after a strenuous over-work both of body and mind.” “I see clearly and assert that the native shall be able to overcome this illness by his strength of spirituality and shall have the opportunity of fulfilling his spiritual errand living up to 19-1-1984. “We have nothing to worry regarding the health of His Divine Grace...”

So at least Ojha’s readings were more accurate than those of Arkasomayaji.

3) RECOGNITION OF SRILA PRABHUPADA AS A GREAT SAINT

a) As far as the claim goes that Ojha depicted Srila Prabhupada “as an ordinary karmi” (and that therefore Arkasomayaji’s chart should be accepted over Ojha’s) this is not at all the case. When I spoke with Ojha at that time he was full of respect and admiration for Srila Prabhupada as a great saint and spiritual leader. He was fully aware of Srila Prabhupada’s accomplishments and there was no way he thought he was an ordinary man. However, he was not asked to give an overall reading, he was only asked to focus on the coming months. Therefore we do not find in that chart any assessment of Srila Prabhupada’s life or personality.

b) There is written evidence that Ojha recognized Srila Prabhupada’s spiritual position in Abhirama’s letter to Tamal Krishna Maharaja, quoted above. “He calculated that according to the stars at birth Srila Prabhupada would live for 81 years 5 months and 29 days. In other words on the 28th February 1978—But he further stressed that this is true only for an ordinary man, that the pious activities and spiritual activities very often prolong the life.”

c) You can always ask Ojha himself what he thought of Srila Prabhupada at that time. [See Ojha’s comments.]

4) PRESENTATION OF THIS ISSUE

a) I must also add that I found your presentation of this debate to be slanted. By selected words and quotes you clearly favor Nalini Kanta prabhu’s view over that of Shyamasundara’s although you present yourself as merely trying to find out the facts and get an objective decision.

Nalini’s reading is a very nice glorification of Srila Prabhupada. The problem I have with it is that it does not match the birth time given by Srila Prabhupada.

Shyamasundara’s reading is not, as you have stated, “just a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo, word jugglery.” Astrology is an very exact and complex science. Although Shyamasundara’s reading was technical, he presented it that way so that the reader can understand the detailed considerations that went into the reading. I am sure that if you ask him for a simple, non-technical reading, he will be only too happy to oblige.

b) I’d like to make a point about the use of quotes from astrological books about planets in particular houses and signs. You have Nalini Prabhu quoting the symptoms of a native with Jupiter in the 9th (as it would be if Sagittarius was rising) with many auspicious qualities.

Then he gives a quote for Jupiter in the 8th (as it would be with Capricorn rising) as follows: “The native with Jupiter in the 8th house (Cap. rising) does not stay with his father; always ailing; mean and low, miser, friendless, debauchee, wicked, thin, dies of cholera, short-lived, base acts, a devil.”

However, in Nalini’s own book he contradicts this. A Capricorn rising makes Sagittarius in the 12th house. 12th Lord is Jupiter who is posited in the 8th. This is what Nalini says about 12th Lord Jupiter in the 8th:

“Only good words are used in texts describing this position, like devotion to God, charitable in heart, kind speech etc. Small inheritance is to be expected. Time spent learning useless things may occur.”

(I wonder how much Srila Prabhupada was taught at Scottish Churches College was actually useful to him?).

“Only good words are used in texts describing this position, like devotion to God, charitable in heart, kind speech etc. Small inheritance is to be expected. Time spent learning useless things may occur.”

Personally I have Jupiter in the 8th (although I have Cancer rising) but I don’t think that the above negative description fits me. Maybe I am deluding myself here but I sure don’t feel like a devil although I might have become one if Srila Prabhupada hadn’t picked me up.

I am curious as to why Nalini ignores his own words and why, when presenting his readings, he states only the negative quotes on certain planetary positions that he doesn’t want to support, when in fact there are positive ones as well.

I am not an astrologer. I can’t read charts to save my life. But I think I understand the basic principles that come into play. The point I am making here is that astrology is not simplistic. There are many factors involved with planets, signs and houses all modifying each other by their various aspects. You can’t simply say that the position of one planet in a particular house means a person’s character is bound to be set in a particular way.

So my request is that if you want to act as moderator of this debate you do so from a strictly neutral stance. It does not help the untrained observer if you deliberately try to slant things in a particular way.

I look forward to hearing more from all sides on this issue because I think it is important that we come to some official understanding on the birth time of His Divine Grace.

Thank you for including me in your postings.

I remain your humble servant,

Hari-sauri dasa

6.5.3 Hari-sauri Letter #3 to Hrishikesananda

Comments: Points out that Nalini has purposely slanted his arguments to predicate the minds of uninformed readers. Points out dangerous mentality of those who want to quickly ignore what Srila Prabhupada has said about himself.

From hsauri-afn.org
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:19:03 -0400
Subject: reply to Hrishi lett of Oct 5th

Hrishikesananda wrote:
Dandavats. AGTSP! Please do not take offense to my last message. But it is frustrating whenever Nalini or I send you any views, because you cast them aside like so much drivel. You say that Nalini’s report to the GBC is “impressive” yet you disregard it. Nalini’s report is “impressive” because Srila Prabhupada’s chart is so nicely presented!

Thanks. I got your letter just after I sent out my reply to your Oct. 4 one. No, I don’t take any offense, and I hope you don’t either. We are all Godbrothers and we are all trying for the same thing. So disagreement may be there on a particular issue but that does not impugn upon a person’s identity as an eternal servant of Krsna. I hope that some day I will be fortunate enough to spend all eternity with you, Nalini, Shyama and all other followers of Srila Prabhupada, dancing with Lord Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana. Pray for me that it happens!

As far as the issue goes, actually I don’t think of your arguments as drivel. But I want to be very convinced about something before I accept it. And as I have previously said, I don’ find Nalini Kanta prabhu’s reading of the Capricorn rising chart to be an accurate reflection of its contents. His reading of the Sagittarius chart is impressive to be sure, but he hasn’t done justice to the Cap. rising chart in any way. He has dismissed it on elementary grounds — the 8th house is evil and inauspicious, and Capricorn is a sudra rising sign, and thus it couldn’t possibly be correct — and painted it in completely negative evocations. This is done quite deliberately to predicate the minds of uninformed readers against the possibility that 4:00 pm could actually be the correct birth time.

I just don’t buy that. I am no astrologer, not by any means, but even from the basics that I have grasped, I know that each house can have both positive and negative effects. For instance, Nalini neglects to mention that the 8th house is a house of moksa. Far from been always evil, a well disposed 8th house can be a powerful force for the liberation of the soul. So I want to see an actual reading which explains properly the situation of each planet and house in the 4:00 pm chart.

I am not very interested in attempts to convince me that the chart is entirely inauspicious and that to support it makes a person an offender to Srila Prabhupada when I know that just isn’t so. Let Nalini do a proper reading of the Capricorn chart and we can then compare that to the one done by Shyamasundara prabhu. Ashu Tosh Ojha has also done one and I expect that to arrive here in Alachua within the next few days. I have also taken the liberty of asking another devotee astrologer, Jagadisananda prabhu, if he wants to do one.

If we find that a 4:00 pm chart cannot adequately describe Srila Prabhupada’s character and activities, then we can consider other possibilities. But we must first consider the chart cast at the time that Srila Prabhupada himself preferred—4:00 pm. Which bring me to the next point in your letter:

Hrishikeshananda said:
Why do you insist on a 4 PM birth time just because HDG said it? But you disregard that HDG also said that he had Moon in Gemini (which all astrologers know is NOT TRUE). Prabhupada said so many things at different times!.... If we take “everything” that HDG said as the one and only truth (like born-again Christians) then we devotees are bound to be confused by so many conflicting “truths,” because HDG said so many things to different devotees.

I always tend to accept things just because Srila Prabhupada said it. I wouldn’t be his disciple if I didn’t. It is not a question of fanaticism but rather one of faith. It is my duty to try to understand what Prabhupada says even if it doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t think it wise to pursue the tack that if something Prabhupada said doesn’t fit my view of things, that I am then at liberty to change it.

I spent enough time with Srila Prabhupada to know that he did change things and sometimes re-adjusted things when he saw that his original instructions were not, or could not be carried out, or that he had been misinformed. So I think I have some grasp of the application of time, place and circumstance and that many things that Prabhupada said are not “etched in stone” — although many are.

But when I see consistency over a period of time in something Prabhupada said, then I accept that Prabhupada means what he says and that becomes a standard which is not open to reinterpretation. Therefore, as I have already pointed out, because Prabhupada repeatedly used 4:00 pm or after as his birth time for the calculation of his horoscope, I have a tendency to accept that and I am very wary of attempts to change it simply because it doesn’t fit with what someone else thinks is right.

Hrshikeshanada said:
Why don’t you simply compare the two different readings and judge for yourself which one is more like Prabhupada? We don’t need to be rocket scientists (or astrologers) to listen to a simple reading; especially since we have already seen Prabhupada’s pastimes it should be easy to judge. Why not just let the two charts be judged by the GBC?

A good idea and I am doing that. I have seen both readings (if you haven’t seen Shyama’s yet I think he will be putting it out very soon) and as long as the GBC are presented with accurate analysis of the charts then they’ll be able to make a sagacious decision. However, bear in mind that most of them are not astrologers, or even interested in astrology as far as I know. So at least they should be given something that they can rely upon, and I don’t think Nalini’s Capricorn rising reading fits in that category.

Nalini should redo it if he wants it to be taken seriously.

Hrishikesananda wrote:
In any case, if the GBC are fooled into thinking that Prabhupada’s Jupiter (GURU) is in the evil 8th house with a sudra sign rising (disregarding the basics of Astrology), then I for one will never show such an inferior horoscope to the public for fear of censure. And I will be embarrassed if ISKCON promotes such a clearly faulty chart.

I believe you are the one who acted as the catalyst in this debate so at least, after having put it to the GBC, you should have the confidence to accept their decision, if they can actually come to one. I don’t know why you would want to go to all this trouble (and put so many others to so much trouble) if you aren’t prepared to accept the outcome. If the only acceptable outcome for you is a finding in favor of your admitted slant to Nalini’s Sagittarius rising chart, and a finding in favor of the 4:00 pm chart means the GBC has been fooled, then what’s the point of all this discussion?

I hope that in engaging in this discussion I haven’t committed any offenses. If I have, kindly forgive me for that — its my natural tendency and as hard to shake off as it is to stop breathing. Nevertheless by the blessings of the Vaisnava’s even the impossible can become a fact, so my humble request is that you show some mercy on this fallen soul so that I can attain the shelter of the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada.

Your humble servant,
Hari-sauri dasa.

By the way, if you are not aware of it, I send copies of all my correspondence with you to Badrinarayana, the GBC body conference and Shyamasundara (and sometimes to the astrology conference), on Badri’s request, in order to keep everyone “in the loop.” Nalini Kanta prabhu unfortunately is only in contact by regular mail and its just not possible to keep him up to date on things. By the time he receives something about a dozen other exchanges have taken place, so I hope he gets on-line soon so we can include him.

6.5.4 Hrishikesananda Prabhu
Concedes Defeat

Update 2019. In 2000, five years after the original version of this monograph was published, I was vindicated. Hrishikesananda Prabhu, the person who had originally inspired this whole endeavour wrote me the following email:

From: "Hrishikesananda"
Subject: A chance to apologize & order my chart
Date: June 14, 2000 at 01:15:39 GMT+5:30
To: Shyamasundara Dasa
Reply-To: rsb1@ksc15.th.com

Respected Shyamasundara Pr.,

Dandavats. Vande gurun isha bhaktan!! I am happy to find your site and contact. Now I have a chance to apologize for taking sides in that old debate regarding ACBSP's birth chart. I should not have been carried by sentimentality and taking sides.

Ironically enough, after reading all your reasons, I became convinced that you were right years back. In this matter please accept my sincere regrets and apologies.

I am glad to see you have a nice WWW site and I wish you growing success. In fact, I would be interested to have your reading done of my chart. I'll go back and look at your site about payment to order the chart. I would be interested in your 'personal' reading and appraisal.

I hope that we can be cyber friends and I look forward to your expert reading of my chart.

Please be blessed by Prabhupada & Krishna,

Y/s,
Hrsi

6.6 Hari-sauri Letter Reply
to Kavicandra Swami

Comments: Points out that real issue is not for the GBC to pick a chart according to what sounds good. But the actual issue is that unless Capricorn inadequately describes Srila Prabhupada then and only then should other possibilities be considered. Points out that we should not “disregard anything Srila Prabhupada said or did in order to favor something we think is better.” Exposes fallacy of minimizing Srila Prabhupada’s knowledge of Vedic cultural activities.

From hsauri-afn.orgThu Oct 12 09:15:44 1995
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 06:13:26 -0400
Subject: reply to Kavicandra Swami let. of Oct 10

Dear Kavicandra Maharaja,
Pamho. AgtSP.

Yes, now Hrishikesananda is out of the loop. Although I appreciate his involvement in bringing this issue out, I am also hoping that now we might be able to go beyond the Nalini vs Shyama mode that he presented it in, and consider the issue free of self-interests.

What time does the Capricorn raising end and Sagittarius begin. Is half past 3 the cut off or does it go closer to4??? Maybe you know an astrologer who can tell you.

According to Shyama (and its easy to verify this if you have an astrology program) Nalini adjusted the time to 3:30 pm because that puts the Lagna (rising) sign half a degree into Sagittarius. A few minutes later and you are in Capricorn.

[Actually according to very accurate computer calculations Capricorn starts at 3:30 PM. You have back the time up to 3:29 as the very ending of Sagittarius. This means that in a matter of moments, not minutes, it changes from one sign to the next. This, by the way is a very weak position to be in—no positional strength. I discuss this in the Sagittarius chart.]

It seems like Hris wants to base everything on the rising [sign]. My feeble understanding is that sometimes strong auspicious things are countered by many factors and vice versa.

Yes, you are correct. That’s why I called Nalini’s reading on the Capricorn chart simplistic and misleading. He tries to reduce it to a couple of simple factors i.e. 8th house is inauspicious and evil and therefore Jupiter couldn’t possibly be good there; and Capricorn is a sudra sign and therefore couldn’t possibly be the rising sign. This is so generalized that it is almost worthless.

As I pointed out before, Nalini in his own book says that when Sagittarius is in the 12th house, as it is with Capricorn rising, its Lord, Jupiter is in the 8th—and Lord of the 12th in the 8th only has good things said about it.

This is because 8th and 12th houses are actually houses of moksa. Materially speaking to have a lot of activity in these houses can be a disaster, but spiritually it can be very purifying, depending on which planets are in them. An exchange between the 12 and 8 is actually a very good spiritual indicator, and this is what you get in Srila Prabhupada’s Capricorn rising chart.

Anyway, Shyama has done a lengthy analysis of this and he’ll be putting it out within a week or so and it will give you a better chance to see what the chart actually says. Personally I’d like to see Nalini do more thorough and balanced reading of the Capricorn chart.

By the way, I did ask Shyama to do a reading on the Sagittarius chart and he will oblige shortly. [It is here.]

Ojha has also done a chart on Capricorn rising and that is being transcribed right now. [It is here.] Interestingly, Tamal Krsna Maharaja noted this is in his diary in 1977 about Ojha’s original Capricorn rising chart:

The 30th July entry: “Srila Prabhupada had asked for us to consult an astrologer regarding whether or not he should travel. This afternoon reports came from three different astrologers. These were presented by Yasodanandana Swami, Dr. Sharma, and Bhakti Prema Swami. I had each give their reports separately so that we could see how they agreed and how they differed. Bhakti Prema’s was useless, Dr. Sharma’s was fair, and Yasodanandana Swami’s most reliable. But all three agreed on one point: the next two months would be the most difficult of Srila Prabhupada’s life and traveling was to be avoided. The astrologer Yasodanandana consulted recommended the wearing of a blue sapphire.

“4th August entry: ”After lunch Srila Prabhupada had me read again the astrologer’s report brought by Yasodanandana Maharaja. Prabhupada found it to be quite accurate regarding his past.”

It is surely significant that Srila Prabhupada felt Ojha’s chart reading to be “quite accurate regarding the past.” Only Srila Prabhupada could know whether a chart was accurate or not, because only he knew himself. If Srila Prabhupada accepted Ojha’s Capricorn rising chart then I don’t know why we have a problem with it. Is Srila Prabhupada the authority on his own chart or not?

It is surely significant that Srila Prabhupada felt Ojha’s chart reading to be “quite accurate regarding the past.” Only Srila Prabhupada could know whether a chart was accurate or not, because only he knew himself. If Srila Prabhupada accepted Ojha’s Capricorn rising chart then I don’t know why we have a problem with it. Is Srila Prabhupada the authority on his own chart or not?

And this leads me to my own question. Hrishikesananda prabhu has all along attempted to portray the current issue as one of the GBC having to choose which chart is better, the Capricorn rising or the Sagittarius rising. However I don’t feel this is the actual issue here. My contention is that unless the Capricorn rising chart based on 4:00 pm cannot adequately describe the character and activities of Srila Prabhupada then it should be accepted, simply because Srila Prabhupada consistently favored that time. And now Tamal Krishna’s diary gives evidence (above) that Prabhupada did in fact feel it to be accurate. Not only that but Ojha was very close in his calculation of Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance, so this adds to the accuracy factor.

Nalini’s rationale for adjusting the chart in the first place was his inability to accept that Capricorn rising with Jupiter in the 8th could properly describe Srila Prabhupada. If this is seen not to be true, there is no need to make any adjustment.

Therefore the question of comparing the Capricorn rising chart with any other chart, or a Sag. rising, simply does not arise.

I just feel we have to be very very careful about disregarding anything Srila Prabhupada said or did in order to favor something we think is better. It sets dangerous precedents. Hrishikesananda says in his last letter:

(Quoting me here) “I take it that he (Srila Prabhupada) was certainly conversant enough with his own chart to know that setting the time back a half hour would change the rising sign.”

(Hrishis’s ans.) I do not accept this statement; how could H.D.G. know such a specialized astrological calculation? That is unsubstantiated speculation!

The implication of Hrishikesananda’s above statement is that he believes Srila Prabhupada was ignorant of his own chart. However, Srila Prabhupada was brought up in a culture where astrology is used regularly and the few exchanges we had with him on it showed that he was very conversant with the terms and concepts, even if he wasn’t an astrologer himself. Pradyumna prabhu did have some exchanges with Srila Prabhupada about astrology which led him to believe that Srila Prabhupada knew a lot about it.

So Hrishikesananda has simply dismissed the possibility that Srila Prabhupada could know anything about astrology, and to me, that’s just plain folly to think that Srila Prabhupada was ignorant about anything.

(I intend to answer a few of Hrishikesananda’s other points in his final “out of the fray” letter in a day or two.)

Is Bhakt Caru Swami working on the things you asked about??? Those were quite good.

Yes BC Maharaja said he’s going to have someone in India do some investigation.

Yhs, HSd

6.7 Transcript of a Conversation
with Yamuna Devi Dasi on
September 18th, 1995

Comments: This conversation suggests that Srila Prabhupada was sufficiently conversant with astrology and palmistry from his householder days to know the importance of an accurate time of birth. It also indicates that Srila Prabhupada had an amazing memory.

Srila Prabhupada walking with Yamuna dasi and other devotees.

Yamuna Dasi: [referring to her memoirs] From October 4, 1970 to May 1971, that time frame, there was one woman in our Sankirtana party...loosely we were a party of twenty devotees. There was one devotee, a female disciple, who was very keen on going to astrologers and consulting with astrologers on a regular basis. Her name was Himavati.

Shyamasundara Dasa (SD): Oh yes, she was the famous Hemavati [wife of Hansadutta].

YD: Hemavati, yes, that’s it. And unfortunately when she got a report that she didn’t like she would become depressed and when she got one that she liked she would become elated and that would be obvious to all of us. Whether she gave us the details of it or not. And at one point Srila Prabhupada more or less said no more astrology because of that. Because he could see that it was affecting her and her ability to...

SD: To function?

YD: Yeah, and in relation to the whole group, it was definitely something that she was too much affected by. However there was the one past time that I remember very clearly was in Indore. And it was at a Bhagavad-gita Sammelan there, it was about 4:00 PM in the afternoon, I have the date exactly in my diary. It was at an afternoon darshan, and a gentleman came, this was the day before ekadasi, and he was a palmist an astrologer and a barber.

SD: And a barber!

YD: And a barber.

SD: That’s an unusual combination.

YD: Well perhaps it was his humble. . .

SD: He was not a Brahmana?

YD: He was a Brahmana but his humble occupation was doing that and he asked if he could shave Prabhupada’s head and he [Prabhupada] said yes. And in the course of that. I remember it carefully because I was cooking for Prabhupada that day, and he had his massage while I was doing the cooking. And he was kind of within range so I was able to occasionally peek out and look. I do recall watching the man do that service and he and Srila Prabhupada were alone. And at that time he gave Srila Prabhupada a head massage that I watched in quite a bit of amazement. I’d never seen anyone’s hands work like his. And after it Srila Prabhupada said it was the best head massage that he had ever had in his life. He was so impressed by it. So he invited the gentleman to a darshan and at that darshan he revealed to Prabhupada that he was a palmist and asked if he could do Prabhupada’s astrology [sic]. We were all sitting. He also brought some alu-chidva and Prabhupada commented that it was his spiritual master’s favorite snack

SD: Oh really!

YD: Then, Prabhupada said “No, I’ve had this done many times but you can do my disciples.” So I remember . . .

SD: I thought you mentioned [from earlier unrecorded conversation] that he didn’t have the readings done because he knew basically what was going on. [Many readings in householder days.] Right?

YD: Yeah. That’s what he said. So in the course of that he spoke. He and Srila Prabhupada spoke astrology talk back and forth. And unless you were an astrologer or knowledgeable about astrology you wouldn’t know at all what they were speaking about. So in a sense he was reporting to Prabhupada his findings on the disciples rather than to us.

SD: Oh.

YD: And in a way Srila Prabhupada was translating what it was to us.

SD: So he read each of your palms?

YD: Yes.

SD: So he read your palm also I suppose?

YD: And I remember that Revatinandana was in front of me. Revatinandana was a Brahmacary then. Um, he was definitely a swami then. And he [palmist] revealed at that time that he [Revatinandana] would have some spiritual difficulties and possibly a fall-down from his sannyasi ashram. I remember his reaction. He was so... he was so disturbed that he jumped out of his chair and said “I wont hear such a thing”. And then. . .

SD: What did Prabhupada say?

YD: Ah, well he didn’t, he didn’t, I don’t, he didn’t stop because of Revati’s out burst at the time. And then I remember mine quite clearly. He was talking about the mount of Venus, I remember the words “Venus.” But I don’t remember the terms they used. I remember Prabhupada said at that time something that I couldn’t relate to at all. I noted that down in my diary at the time. Something to the effect that, ah yes,“She will become more recognized than the Yamuna River. She will become more recognized than Mirabai.” And he said “All of my women disciples they are very outstanding.” And it was very, I wont say exactly, something that, a rasa between, sometimes Srila Prabhupada would flatter his disciples or give his disciples praise in the most loving way. And you would look at him in puzzlement—why are you doing this? But sometimes he would treat us like children, sometimes like parents. And at this time when they were talking in this way, I, of course couldn’t relate exactly what, why they were speaking the way they were. And why he was playing with me in front of him. But it was a very. . .

SD: So far some of that has come true. You have become quite a world-acclaimed author, cook and stuff like that.

* * * * *

YD: There was an exchange at John Lennon’s estate in 1969. A man came for the evening darshan, he was an astrologer. But I must say that I don’t recall any charts—Prabhupada dealing with them personally—they just talked shop. On the three occasions I have faint memories of [she had previously briefly described some exchange with an astrologer at the Bombay pandal] Prabhupada spoke in astrological terms in such a way that I couldn’t understand them.

SD: So you’re implying that he knew something about the subject?

YD: Very clearly, yes. That’s definitely what I would glean from this.

SD: Did he ever discuss about his own horoscope in your presence?

YD: In my presence. Not exactly horoscope.

SD: Or Palmistry?

YD: No. There was definitely a pastime with Mahapurusha and I. Again at John Lennon’s in an afternoon darshan. Where Prabhupada spoke on a very intimate; he started telling what we thought were very intimate pastimes of his very very early childhood. And he remembered them with such clarity that it, at the time, it blew our minds. It just was stunning to us. He recalled being a child and he was wrapped up, so much a baby, that he was wrapped up in blankets. And they were in a bullock cart, traveling in a bullock cart. And he described that the bulls were immense white bulls and they were, the bullock cart wasn’t moving as our bullock carts, as we observe bullock carts in India. But they were running. He said in previous times that bullocks, bulls could run and indicated that they were moving at a very fast speed. And the bullock cart hit a stone and Srila Prabhupada said he could remember, he could remember, flying through the air. And landing in some soft grasses, and the wheel of the cart collapsed and the two people inside were hurt. And he remembered that incident. And we were so surprised, we said Srila Prabhupada. Or Swamiji, we called him Swamiji, could you tell us more pastimes like that. And he said “At a later time I will tell you. Not now. I remember all these things.” And he never did. We asked him on a couple of different occasions and he never picked up from there. But we were thinking that he must have great awareness of not only this life but previous lives.

SD: This seems to indicate that he had a good memory then; right?

YD: More than good. Because the clarity he remembered, that was unusual. It was unusual. And when we heard him tell the story we knew it was unusual.

SD: Because some people have suggested that Prabhupada was a little bit ambiguous about [things]. Cause his memory. He said he was born on Harrison Road but actually he was born in Tollygunge and this indicates that his memory wasn’t always so good and casts doubt on his birth time and things like that. So I was doubtful about that [the claims of Prabhupada’s poor memory].

YD: Aha. Never, no. And he never discussed his birth time. Then again I don’t know anybody who knows...

SD: There’s a letter, if you look on Folio, there’s a letter that says, “I was born about 4 PM.”

YD: Well, wouldn’t that be true that most of us would be told when we were born? That. . .

SD: Yeah!

YD: That we wouldn’t remember our birth.

SD: But you would remember being told though.

YD: You would remember being told. But ah...

SD: Plus, if he had his horoscope done, as it appears. That he had done many times as a youth, as when he was younger. He must have been telling him his birth time.

YD: That’s true. That is interesting. However, I don’t know, you are a Vedic astrologer, whether that moment [of birth] is required?

SD: The time is pretty much required.

YD: The minute is required?

SD: Even up to the minute. The closer the better.

YD: Ok. Because we don’t even know, say when we are registered at birth in a hospital. Whether that silly person that recorded it. Or its possible; Prabhupada would always give the example that if the mother, hopefully, her senses...

SD: Well the mother, she is probably not the one who is doing it. Rupavilasa Prabhu, the one who did the biography of Bhaktisiddanta, he said that he read in one place that Bhaktivinode stood with a stop-watch recording when Bhaktisiddhanta was born.

YD: Nice, nice. But we would expect such from him. But whether a woman in labor knows or a nurse.

SD: The woman has probably got a few other things on her mind.

YD: However it depends again on how conscious she is of the importance of that.

SD: Also it is, there are times...

YD: You never know. I never heard Prabhupada contradict himself in that regard, neither did I ever hear him personally discuss that subject matter so I’m afraid I’m not very much help.

SD: No, no you’ve been helpful. Especially talking about Srila Prabhupada’s memory, and how you said he had his horoscope and palm read on many occasions.

YD: All I can say is that he spoke the language of an astrologer.

6.8 Transcript of Conversation With Ashutosh Ojha on September 20th, 1995

Comment: Indicates source of birth data that he used to calculate Prabhupada’s chart. Also gives details of his academic qualifications and training as an astrologer. This shows his admiration and respect for Srila Prabhupada and how it was his father who urged him to do the chart.

Ashutosh Ojha (AO): I did not know what he [Nalini Kanta] says, I even did not understand that he was an astrologer. But I met him one time.

Shyamasundara Dasa (SD): You met Nalini Kanta?

AO: Yes he came to India to see me one time. I think maybe about six years ago. But he was talking about his own horoscope.

SD: Ah yes. Anyway I have to do a refutation, I have to make some criticism because that is the nature of this whole thing.

AO: Yeah, sure whenever someone referred that he has given reference of Prabhupada’s horoscope in his book you know.

SD: Yes.

AO: And he made Sagittarius rising. So I could not understand because I got the particulars from Prabhupada himself.

SD: Yes.

AO: And as far as I remember there were two people who brought it to me. One was Gurukrpa.

SD: Yes.

AO: And there was another person, Damodar Pandit.

SD: Wasn’t Hari-sauri one of them?

AO: Hari-sauri came, yeah, sure. Yes he came.

SD: Was there also Abhiram?

AO: Abhiram. Right.

SD: And also Yashodanandana?

AO: Yashodanandana, I’m not sure. I don’t remember him. But Damodar Pandit came to collect it from me.

SD: Aha.

AO: Because Damodar Pandit was many years in Vrndavan [so he met him often and was familiar with him]. But I remember Hari-sauri was there.

* * * * *

AO: We have scholars in our family.

SD: Your father was.

AO: My father was. Before that there was one person and his centenary was celebrated. He wrote 67 books. Madhusudana Ojha, he was the Raja Guru of the Maharaja of Jaipur.

SD: Oh of Jaipur.

AO: We were the Gurus of the Maharajas of Alwar for six generations. We have been astrologers for six generations. So he wrote 67 books in which he has tried to describe how you can make airplanes and use the principles of atoms according to the Vedas you know.

SD: When was this?

AO: Madhusudana Ojha...

SD: He wrote Vimana Sastra?

AO: Right. And his books have been taken over by the Government of Rajasthan who are now publishing it slowly.

SD: Oh really! When did he die?

AO: He died about 1915 [? not clear].

SD: What about your education.

AO: I started astrology when I was very young. My father said that from about age five I would start looking through astrology books. Looking at the pictures, especially of Scorpio. I also have a Bachelors Degree with Honors in Mathematics. I can calculate very quickly. Also a Masters Degree in English literature.

* * * * *

SD: Did you ever meet Prabhupada?

AO: I will write in my article that one part of me was telling me to meet him, my father said you should go and meet him. But my ego said no, I should not go.

SD: Why?

AO: Just like the ego of a Brahmana is [indistinct]. Brahmanas are unpredictable you know. I shall write about it.

SD: So you think Srila Prabhupada had a very powerful horoscope?

AO: Actually you know my father was the one who said “Ok come and my son will do the reading.” About Prabhupada’s horoscope.

SD: Aha

AO: And I said to my father. “Why you have fixed for me [this responsibility].” I was already very busy you know. And I didn’t have any time. “Why you have told people to come and see me?” He said “Well now you should see him.” I said alright. [Indistinct] But it was the will of God you know. So that’s how it happened. Because actually my father was not practicing for many years because of paralysis so he would pass on these people to me.

SD: Aha.

AO: Then he said I should charge only 30 Rupees, whereas I was charging over 200 Rupees at that time from foreigners you know. So I said why he should try to reduce my fees. Because on one side he didn’t want me to do astrology on the other he says ok do it for 30 Rupees. [indistinct] It kept on bothering me. . .

SD: Were you impressed by Srila Prabhupada’s horoscope when you saw it?

AO: See in my [work looking at charts all day, looking at another chart] it was a routine thing for me [to examine charts]. I heard about Prabhupada even before you know. Because even before that one person used to come to talk to my father. What was his name? He was writing for Prabhupada.

SD: Pradyumna. That’s the one?

AO: And then also about the Hare Krsna Movement people we knew. I just saw the horoscope in the last days. But after one year I felt very sad that I missed the opportunity of going to see him you know. But maybe the Lord only wanted me to have this much touch with Prabhupada not seeing him physically. And I told someone that he [Prabhupada] should do Maha-mrtyunjaya Japa, and all that. And I was told that Prabhupada said “no, just chant Hare Krsna.”

SD: Yes that is what he said.

AO: I don’t know who told me this maybe Smarahari said.

SD: Yes, you told him to get a Blue Sapphire and do Maha-mrtyunjaya Japa.

AO: He got the gem, they brought it from Hong Kong.

SD: You recommended the Blue Sapphire because he had Makara Lagna [Capricorn Ascendant].

AO: No. He had Makara Lagna and the Sani [Saturn] was very bad.

SD: Ashtama Sani [Saturn transiting the 8th from the Ascendant].

AO: Loss of life. I said there would be loss of life. Some disciple of his got very angry. He said that Prabhupada is going to live for more than 100 years. I said no.

SD: You should write this down.

AO: I remember it you know.

SD: Please write this down it is important.

AO: I said we don’t go...One who is born, his body has to go some day. So now is the time for it to go. And he will travel. He may have some urinary problems. He will come back. He will die in a holy place. You see this in the horoscope or not.

SD: Did I see that?

AO: In the horoscope it indicates. Because he had Ketu in the 8th.

SD: Ketu with Jupiter and Surya in the 8th house.

AO: Ketu with Jupiter in the 8th gives Moksha.

SD: Yes.

AO: Although Srila Prabhupada said he wants to come back. And pray and worship. The lord of the 8th. . .

SD: Jupiter in the 8th like that. Sanketanidhi says that the person becomes a great devotee of Krsna.

AO: Ketu and Jupiter.

SD: Well Jupiter as 12th lord in the 8th house becomes a great devotee of Krsna.

AO: Other devotees I have seen [indistinct] have planets in the 8th house. It shows Bhaktimarga.

SD: I have also seen prostitutes with many planets in the 8th. It is a dangerous house. One must learn to control it. [Please see my discussion of the 8th house in my analysis of Nalini’s thesis.]

6.9 Transcript of Conversation with
Sruta Kirti Prabhu and Kusa Devi Dasi,
October 7th, 1995

Comment: This testimony suggests that Srila Prabhupada was familiar with several occult sciences such as Samudrika Sastra—physiognomy. That Prabhupada was aware of major cycles in his life that were related to planetary cycles. And it also suggests that Prabhupada was aware of astrological theory regarding marriage and shared karma.

Srila Prabhupada and Sruta Kirti Prabhu.

Kusa Dasi: This is something that Sruta told me. It’s something sort of mystical. He, Srila Prabhupada, was looking at Sruta’s feet. I know this sounds pretty bizarre. And he was saying “You have very beautiful feet.” And then he said, “Is your mother beautiful? Is she beautiful?” And Sruta said, “Yes, she was, she’s old now Srila Prabhupada.” And Srila Prabhupada said “I heard that if you have nice feet, the mother is very beautiful, I was just testing to see if it worked.” Sruta is here to verify it.

Sruta Kirti: Once in Mayapura, Prabhupada spoke, he wasn’t, he didn’t directly say anything about astrology. But he was definitely talking about cycles in his life. And he mentioned eleven year cycles, of major events that had happened in his life. And he started with 1933, which I believe, uhmm, 1933. I’m not sure. When did he take initiation?

SD: Sounds like the time he took initiation, roughly.

SK: Right. Then he said 1944, uhmm.

SD: That’s when he started BTG.

SK: Yeah. 1955.

SD: Aha. That’s about when he left home.

SK: Right. 1966.

SD: When he came [to America].

SK: Right. And 1977,and that’s what he said. This was of course in 1975, when he said, “maybe then I will die.”

SD: Aha.

SK: So, you know he was speaking of cycles.

SD: That’s roughly the Jupiter cycle. Of course the Jupiter cycle is little bit shy of twelve years. [On later calculation I found that average Jupiter cycle from 1905 to 1999 was about 11.79 years.]

SK: In could probably be seen in that way.

SD: That is an interesting comment that you made there. Let’s see in 1933 [referring the Prabhupada Lilamrta volume 1] (pause). He was initiated in November of 1932. So that is basically the end of 1932 beginning of 1933. Roughly in that time. That’s when he helped the God-brothers start the Gaudiya Matha in Bombay and got into much more extensive preaching. [Counting backwards 11 years] Because November 1932 to 1922—that’s when he met Bhaktisiddhanta for the first time. 1922 was eleven years earlier, he met Bhaktisiddhanta. And circa 1912 roughly, his mother died. So about 10 to 11 years earlier than that his mother died. Of course it is not exactly clear about what time it was that she passed. And 11 years earlier than that, in 1901, is when he began his own Ratha-yatra. So that’s interesting.

SK: Yeah.

SD: If you remember a few more things while I talk to Kusa again you can tell me.

SK: Yes. Kusa says she remembers something.

Kusha Devi Dasi

KD: I don’t have the best memory. But Prabhupada, I don’t know where or anything, he talked about this one gentleman who was, like, very poverty stricken his whole life.

SD: Yes.

KD: And he was married to this woman and they just didn’t have really good luck. Somehow or other he took a trip. On a boat and there was an accident and he was stranded on an island and he found this treasure. And another boat came along and he was saved. And there was an astrologer on board. And the astrologer did his horoscope and his wife’s horoscope and everything. And the astrologer told him that if he got back together with his wife he would lose all of his money because the combination was so bad that he would remain poor. And the reason that he was poor in the first place was because he was with this woman.

SD: Right.

KD: And, so the only time he was separated from her was when wealth came. Because he was literally stranded and everything. So that was a story I heard Srila Prabhupada say.

SD: Was that something that actually happened? A historical incident that he recalled?

KD: It was just a story that I remember Srila Prabhupada telling.

SD: That kind of thing is absolutely true. I remember I looked at one devotee’s chart. One of our God-brothers. His name was [redacted]. He called me in April of 1984. He was young, only 31 years old. He had contracted Melanoma, skin cancer. He wanted my astrological advice. Based on the time he called the prasna looked bad. It was enough to signify death to me. But when I looked at his chart I couldn’t see anything [that would indicate death]. But when I looked at his wife’s horoscope, she had a widow’s chart. So he died six months later in Vrndavana.

KD: Right. Well it’s good to be prepared for that.

SD: The point being that when you get married you get intertwined with karma [of both individuals].

6.10 Transcript of Conversation
with Pradyumna Prabhu on
September 27th, 1995

Comment: This conversation suggests that Srila Prabhupada and other Gaudiya Matha members were familiar with the basic components of astrology as a regular daily function. It explains how a mistake was made in Prabhupada’s Moon sign. It also describes how it was Pradyumna who suggested that Ojha be consulted.

Pradyumna (with book) helps Prabhupada
translate Srimad Bhagavatam

SD: I was wondering if you have any recollection of when Prabhupada said his time of birth was or if you had ever did Prabhupada’s horoscope?

Pradyumna Dasa: I used to know what it was.

SD: What was that?

PD: I used to know but I’ve forgotten.

SD: Did you ever calculate Prabhupada’s horoscope?

PD: I think I might have once.

SD: You learned how to calculate charts right?

PD: Yeah. I calculated a lot of charts. I had note books full of charts. But he [Srila Prabhupada] didn’t know the exact time of birth. But he knew his Lagna [Rising Sign based on birth time].

SD: What did he say his Lagna was?

PD: I forgot.

SD: O yeah.

PD: But, you know, he knew that. He knew where his Moon was, he knew the Sun, he knew Lagna.

SD: Because of course...

PD: My suggestion is to ask his son or something. But Prabhupada just, at the tip of a hat [could say his chart]. You know in Gaudiya Matha they all knew each other’s.

SD: Aha.

PD: Like Sridhar Maharaja would know Prabhupada’s. Prabhupada would know Sridhar Maharaja’s. One time I was talking with Keshava Maharaja’s disciples you know. And I ask what’s Keshava Maharaja’s [chart]. Oh, and you know they knew it right away. His Lagna’s this, that’s his Star. What about Sridhar Maharaja? That’s him. What about Bhaktisiddhanta? Oh that’s him. They knew everyone! They knew Prabhupada. You know. These were just brahmacaris talking.

SD: They knew Prabhupada’s also. I wonder if any of them would be alive now? Maybe the disciples of Sridhar Maharaja like Govinda Maharaja would know? Govinda Maharaja actually lived with Prabhupada.

PD: Govinda Maharaja would probably know Srila Prabhupada’s sign. Not where the planets are, but the Lagna and Candra.

SD: There is one letter where Prabhupada says “I was born about 4:00 PM and my Rasi is Mithuna.” But of course if you calculate that Rasi is not Mithuna but the very last degrees of Taurus, 28 degrees and some minutes. But if you consider that in the old days they used to use Panjikas that didn’t have bija corrections. Then...

PD: Yeah, he would probably have used Directory Panjika from Calcutta.

SD: Which would give the wrong position of Candra because...

PD: Yeah, that would be different from Lahiri.

SD: Yes.

PD: That’s what Prabhupada followed, the Directory, he used to have one of those.

SD: So Prabhupada would calculate his own horoscope?

PD: No. But I suppose his family. The Directory Panjika was always that one that was used in Calcutta.

SD: Aha.

PD: Or something similar to that. I don’t know how far...

PD: Because I was the first one to meet him, the father, you know.

SD: Oh , Gopesh Kumar [Ojha].

PD: I bought his book at Motilal’s and his number was in it so I called him up and he said come on over. I was the first devotee he had ever met. And I used to go over there all the time. You know I lived in Delhi for a while so I go over there all the time. We spend hours together and just talk.

SD: I heard that he was very learned.

PD: He was very learned, he was old, but he was still ok. And then at the end he was just lying down [from a stroke]. The last time I came he said he was just praying that he could die. It was very sad.

SD: Was he in pain?

PD: Yes. He was still alive when Prabhupada was ill. And Prabhupada said who to [unclear] and I recommended Ojha. So Yashodanandana Maharaja went.

SD: You and Yashodanandana Maharaja?

PD: Huh?

SD: You and Yashodanandana?

PD: No. I just gave them the address and the phone number. I was busy because at that time, I was translating the Bhagavatam. Prabhupada did the last part. [Prabhupada said], “do the synonyms and the translations, read it to me and I’ll dictate the purport.” So I was really busy translating because every day I had to go down and hold the microphone and get the purport. And I had to do; have the verses finished.

SD: Yes.

PD: It was really hard to do. So I didn’t have any time to go to Delhi so Yashodanandana Maharaja went. You have all the information there.

SD: Yes. It’s a Capricorn rising. Ojha’s going to do another chart based on that.

PD: Because we had two charts done. One by Gandhi, one by M.K. Gandhi [of London], and one by Ojha.

SD: Where’s the M.K. Gandhi chart?

PD: Well, I guess we called him up. We either, we had it done right be... I think I called him right before we left for India, right before we left England. My wife and I were in England. Prabhupada left, we didn’t go back with him right away. He said “there is no need to go now.” And then we got a telegram saying “come immediately to Vrndavan.” So I think just before we went, like half and hour or an hour, I called Gandhi and I said “Prabhupada is very very ill, can you do something to see what is happening?” He said “sure, no problem.” Then I think he wrote it and he sent it or something like that. He said “there’s no problem, this crisis will pass, Prabhupada will not die.”

SD: He was wrong.

PD: He was wrong. And then we got that and then they came back with Ojha’s thing. This happened within the space of a couple of days I guess. And Ojha thing had said...

SD: That it was very serious. . . Probably because M.K. Gandhi may have chosen Sagittarius rising, because they had this other one by Arkasomayaji, a South Indian, who had also gotten Sagittarius rising. He said that Prabhupada would live till 1984. Because for Sagittarius there is nothing to make one think of death. It would be Ketu Mahadasa and Ketu in the 9th house and Saturn transiting through the 9th house. But if you have Capricorn rising it is all in the 8th house. And that is why Prabhupada passed away then.

PD: [Unclear] He used to know it. They would ask him what his Star is and Nakshatra?

SD: Who Prabhupada? I guess it [Prabhupada’s Lunar Nakshatra] would be Mrgasirsha I suppose.

PD: I think I was there a couple of times people would ask him [unclear].

SD: Mrgasirsha? Half of that is in Taurus and half in Gemini. That’s another point. That’s very clear why somebody would say it was in Gemini if half the Nakshatra is in one of two signs [Taurus and Gemini].

PD: See, whenever you do those ceremonies too.

SD: They want to know what your gotra is and what your Nakshatra is.

PD: So, Prabhupada was the Yajamana for establishing the Vrndavana Temple. And the priest was the Puruhit so he would announce “dara-dara-dara-dara-da” [nonsense sounds] so we always had to have [Prabhupada’s Gotra and Nakshatra]. I was there a couple of times. [The point being that in a Vedic ceremony, part of the identification of the aspirant was the gotra he belonged to as well as the lunar Nakshatra he was born under. These items would be announced along with his name and other identifying items.]

SD: So you haven’t got any records anywhere with Prabhupada’s charts? Nothing?

PD: Do I?

SD: Yes.

PD: I had a lot of note books of charts but I don’t have them with me. I don’t even know where they are.

SD: They got lost in the shuffle?

PD: I collected. I had pages and pages of information of different peoples charts.

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