Opinions of Persons Conversant
With Astrological Discourse
Abstract: On this page we publish the comments of various devotees who are conversant in astrology and who can thus make an informed opinion of the subject as opposed to lay people who are bewildered by all the jargon and get confused by opposing statements. They are presented in alphabetical order starting with disciples of Srila Prabhupada and then grand-disciples.
7.1 Sriman Jagadisananda Prabhu
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:49:28 -0700
My name is Jagadisananda dasa, initiated by Srila Prabhupada in 1976. I have been studying astrology casually for the last six years.
After reading your [Shyamasundara Dasa] essay I think the only conclusion is the Capricorn Lagna. There are two major reasons for this. One is that Srila Prabhupada himself gave us the time of 4 pm. The second is that the description of the dashas and bhuktis you give so nicely matches up to the events in Srila Prabhupada’s life. I think this is the major evidence and based on this it is a closed book subject.
Two major glaring faults in the Sagittarius chart presented by Nalini Kanta Prabhu are:
1. How could Candra Mangala yoga appear in the 6th house? This is irreconcilable in the Sagittarius chart.
2. Where are the indications that Srila Prabhupada would pass away in Ketu dasha if Sag was rising? That is why the astrologer Arkasomayaji predicted that Srila Prabhupada would live much longer. He mistakenly calculated the ascendant as Sag and came to the mistaken conclusion as there is no indication of death during Ketu dasha with Sag ascendant.
There are a few things in Nalini’s interpretation that should be mentioned.
1. He completely denounces the sign Capricorn and the eighth house, but then gives Bhaktisiddhanta’s chart as Gemini rising which puts 4 planets in the eighth house in the sign of Capricorn. In doing this he has defeated his whole superficial argument that the eighth house and the sign Capricorn are inherently bad.
2. He has made an inexcusable error of assigning the sign Capricorn to the Sudra caste. He criticizes people for not understanding the basics, but this is about as basic as one can get.
2. He has made an inexcusable error of assigning the sign Capricorn to the Sudra caste. He criticizes people for not understanding the basics, but this is about as basic as one can get.
3. How can Nalini say that Srila Prabhupada was in error about his birth time? If one searches the Vedabase you can see how knowledgeable Srila Prabhupada was about the basic principles of astrology. I think Srila Prabhupada was more than conversant with the importance of exact birth time and we should stick with the 4 PM time. There is no need for rectification.
4. Jupiter in the ninth doesn't always indicate a spiritual person. This is too simplistic of an understanding. More than likely it would just indicate a person who was into making money and have a large family. Jupiter in the eighth is not bad. I have Jupiter in the eighth and Nalini’s own Brghu readers told me it was a powerful raj yoga!
5. Nalini’s paper should not be taken as evidence until he makes an analysis of the planetary periods based on the Sag ascendant.
7.2 Sriman Nikhilananda Prabhu
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 16:49 SWT
My name: Nikhilananda Dasa
Joined in April 1972. Initiated first in March 1973, second in December 1973. Studied Vedic astrology for over 15 years, starting my studies in May 1980 in Sridham Mayapur, India. Gave a few seminars on Vedic astrology and the structure of the universe.
Dear Shyamasundara Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Thank you again for the elaborate analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s chart which I downloaded. I am especially grateful because you have also made available a huge amount of practical information for us--how to judge a horoscope and the significance and relationships of various houses and specific yogas. I learned a lot and got some things confirmed which I was not totally sure about. Also, a lot of back-ground information and details. Perhaps that is why all this had to happen. We can meditate on Srila Prabhupada and increase our skills. Of course the way Nalini and Hrishikesananda have conducted the discussion so far is painful and the expressions and quotes they used reveal an undignified carelessness in dealing with Srila Prabhupada’s personality that to me seems offensive and distasteful.
Anybody who has some practical sense for genuine Vedic astrology should be able to see the difference between the fragmental astrology presented and your vast ocean of learning and experience. Nalini Kanta’s analysis is so remarkably fragmental and neophyte in style that it lacks any objectivity or depth but his presentation is made cleverly manipulative and emotionally appealing, so I am afraid those who do not know the science and are burdened with management work will not look through the farce but may favor the solution which looks most simple and appealing to them on short glance. While your presentation is the only acceptable one from any point of view of scientific thinking, unfortunately my experience is that even in our higher ranks the members are not always used to objective scientific in-depth thinking and discussion in the sense of vijnana. Anyway, it is good that you explained everything extensively in simple non-specialist language so anyone who takes the time will be able to understand the whole thing.
In any case the whole thing does not lack a humorous note and the manipulative style in Nalini Kanta’s statement destroys his credibility. So it should be exposed. How can he say that if the GBC decides that Capricorn is the right ascendant they should at least never publish it? I am not sure but it seems that he simply wants to avoid the embarrassment of having to admit that he committed a grave mistake in his immature years. We should be merciful. It takes a great person to have the strength and honestly admit a mistake in public. However, as an alleged astrologer and Brahmana it is his duty and by deriding Srila Prabhupada’s actual chart so strongly in public he has committed offense. This should be his actual concern if he is interested in spiritual advancement and knowledge, instead of self-aggrandizement. At least that is the way I see it though I may always be wrong. I think that when dealing with things related to the spiritual master, a certain amount of care is always a good policy.
Hope, this meets you well.
Here Are My Formal Comments on
the Discussion of the Two Charts.
After thorough examination of the various arguments presented by Nalini Kantha Prabhu and Shyamasundara Prabhu on the Capricorn/Sagittarius dispute, concerning HDG Srila Prabhupada’s chart, I arrived at the following conclusion.
1. There is no doubt in me that Capricorn, the ascendant accepted by Srila Prabhupada himself, is the correct one and that the attempt by Nalinikantha Prabhu to replace it by another one and to prove that Srila Prabhupada was mistaken cannot be accepted but should be rejected.
2. The terrible picture Nalini Kanta paints of the chart, with Capricorn ascendant, is based mainly on his description of the drekkana rising in which for Sagittarius saint clad in saffron silk garments is noted while for Capricorn rising an ugly person is described. Nalini claims that the drekkana rising in the ascendant is of paramount importance for the chart and stipulated that Sriman Mahaprabhu Himself ordered us to always accept the direct meaning of any verse, even in astrology sastras. This statement is, in short, nonsense.
If Nalini really has examined, as he claims, hundreds of charts, it should not have escaped his attention that in at least 70 % of all charts the description given for the drekkana in the quoted sastra does not fit the description of the person in real life. Rather the drekkana is almost exclusively used for answering questions about travels, theft etc. ( according to Brihat-jataka, a book recommended by Srila Prabhupada in Cc.Adi ) and has in no way any central importance for describing a person’s character, life, appearance etc. So by taking advantage of a small part of a relatively unimportant description that happens to coincide partially with Srila Prabhupada’s features and ignoring all the rest and much more valid aspects of the charts he dared to change the time and structure of the whole chart to fit his idea. This fragmental way of chart analysis, as presented by Nalini Kanta Prabhu, is according to all that I learned, the wrong way to evaluate a chart, and it can only lead to nonsensical results. The chart always has to be seen with all its elements, just like in real life a person is a whole, not a fragmental entity. Moreover the drekkana effect as described is completely canceled by the other extremely powerful features of Srila Prabhupada’s chart and thus not valid.
3. The negative attributes Nalini ascribes to Saturn, the Lord of Capricorn ascendant and to the drekkana are not valid, as any serious neophyte student of astrology can tell, for he failed to mention that this Saturn is exalted in a quadrant, the tenth house, plus the strongest planet in the chart and thus can only give good results. It would look to me normally like a neophyte student’s mistake. It is completely false to assume that Saturn as predominating planet of a chart produces a sudra-like person, if Saturn is strong and the chart otherwise extraordinarily beneficial and exalted, as in Srila Prabhupada’s. Rather this exalted ascendant lord Saturn in the tenth house is very likely to produce a paramahamsa sannyasi of the highest order and a world leader, rendering the highest service for all mankind, for Saturn, when strong and well-placed in the house of work (the 10th) stands for service to mankind, spiritual renunciation, untiring work, incomparable determination, purity of purpose and a saint of the highest order, capable of being a religious world-leader for a long period of time in the future (Saturn, being a slow-moving planet promotes long term affairs, when well-placed). It also means that the actual break-through in work comes late in life but has a solid long-term foundation and long-time effects on the whole world and its population.
4. If we take Capricorn as ascendant, Srila Prabhupada’s chart is bristling with all kinds of auspicious planetary combinations. If it were not correct, how could an astrologer many years ago predict on the basis of this ascendant that Srila Prabhupada would open 108 temples, would travel around the world and all the other things, in perfect detail? If this ascendant would really, as Nalini Kanta says, produce a demoniac sudra-like person, how could Ojha, who is a 6th generation full-time Vedic astrologer and great admirer of Srila Prabhupada (I met him in 1982 in Berkeley when he wanted to join ISKCON full-time) fail to see this obvious discrepancy ? It seems that the only person supporting Nalini Kanta’s view is Hrishikesananda Prabhu, who admits that he does not know the least about Vedic astrology science and some astrologer from South India who has done a chart reading that contains so many errors and shortcomings that it is not even worth the paper. I just wonder what is going on and how can anyone take this seriously.
5. There is something unique about Srila Prabhupada’s chart when accepting Capricorn ascendant. Personally I see not the least problem with this ascendant but feel impressed to notice the following striking features. This is valid only with the ascendant accepted by Srila Prabhupada—Capricorn :
a) The ninth house, which is the denoter for religion (dharma-bhava) and should be exceptionally occupied in the chart of the most successful proponent of Vaisnava religion of all times, carries an exalted planet, which in addition is in its own house. (In Nalini Kantas version there would be no exalted planet in the ninth house of religion ) This exalted planet is Mercury, which in several sastras is called the Vaisnava planet. Ninth house also promotes success and fame. So HDG is known for spreading Vaisnava religion. Not only that, but it also joined by Venus in the ninth, which, just as in Lord Caitanya’s chart, which also has Venus in the ninth, indicates that his religion is one of pure love. (In Srila Prabhupada’s chart Venus has attained distinct Nica-bhanga raja-yoga and is with exalted Mercury (the planet of preaching, of vaishnavas and of travels) while in Sri Caitanya’s ninth house Venus is strong as 10th lord in the 9th. It is obvious through this that HDG is the fulfiller of Lord Caitanya’s mission. Mercury in this place makes a great preacher, speaker, communicator, world-famous scholar, Vaisnava, and the most loving and merciful guru (because of Venus association). To say that only Jupiter in the ninth can make a great guru because Jupiter in Sanskrit is called guru is simply not correct. It is almost childish. Actually Jupiter in the ninth as indicator of dharma would not be such an exceptionally great placement because the indicator in its corresponding house according to sastra is not too good. Note also that Venus in the 9th as lord of tenth is conducive because in any very successful person’s chart the tenth and ninth should be connected and also Venus is the Lord of the auspicious fifth. In Srila Prabhupada’s chart the planets in the ninth house produce with Capricorn as ascendant not less than six powerful raja yogas and the tenth house produces Parivraja yoga/Sasa Mahapurusha yoga - expressing very clearly one of the most outstanding personalities the world has ever seen. (Not exactly the ugly sudra chart Nalini Kanta has outlined for Capricorn Lagna.) Ojha quoted all kinds of Rishis and sastras to this effect. Note also that with Venus as debilitated lord of tenth in ninth the native will not be much interested in mundane work and success but divert his love and work and energy to religious causes, which only later in life, due to neecha bhanga raja yoga, finds great recognition and success. (This situation is also not there in Nalini Kanta’s version.)
b) Saturn, lord of the first and auspicious second, exalted in the tenth, a quadrant, forming Sasa Mahapurusha yoga/ Parivraja yoga in the tenth, which produces an extraordinary great personality, according to sastra a swan-like, graceful spiritual stalwart, a Paramahamsa. (This position would not appear in Nalini Kanta’s Sagittarius ascendant chart). The tenth house of work is very important in assessing the person’s direction and activities in life. Thus there can be no doubt that HDG works all his life in pure devotional service for the upliftment of mankind and has appeared, endowed with all spiritual opulences for exactly this mission. So he is an eternally liberated soul. This is confirmed by the fact that Jupiter, lord of twelfth, aspects the very same twelfth house of liberation, his own house and is conjoined by Sun, significator of self being in its own sign. So the placement of Jupiter in the eight is in no way an asura-yoga, as falsely claimed by Nalini Kanta but a brilliant factor, indicating a liberated soul. The famous work Sanketanidhi confirms for 12th Lord placement in the eighth house : The native’s devotion to Lord Krishna will be immense. This is even more the case with Jupiter in the eight, so I have seen Jupiter in the eight in many devotees charts. In SP’s chart it is even more special for it is a unique combination of Sun, Jupiter and Ketu, the latter only increasing the effect and acting more like a benefic in regard to spirituality and liberation. So his devotion to Krishna surpasses any ordinary soul’s imagination, as clearly seen from this eight house. How this could be an asura yoga, as Nalini Kanta claims, will be forever his secret. It does not conform with conservative sastric evidence.
c) Srila Prabhupada’s chart shows three planets (Mercury, Saturn and the Moon) in exaltation, which is very extraordinary! Even to have two exalted planets in Rasi is very rare, what to speak of three. Note that the Moon is exalted in Taurus, just like in Krishna’s chart, and it is joined by Mars, forming an auspicious Candra Mangala yoga. Note that the Moon in the fifth is generally better than to have it in the sixth, the Moon representing the mind, feeling and character of a person. (With Nalini Kanta’s Sagittarius ascendant the Moon would be in the inimical sixth ). The Moon is according to all Jyotiṣa sastras is as important as the ascendant and often taken as a second ascendant. In Nalini Kanta’s version it would be a malefic lord in a malefic house, in the Capricorn version a quadrant Lord in the fifth house, which is a very powerful and auspicious placement for the Moon. The Moon and the Ascendant both in earth signs give the native immense stability and depth in life, a most solid foundation for the personality, while ascendant lord Saturn exalted in a movable sign makes him travel for worthwhile purposes and cross the ocean in old age.
6. If we accepted Nalini Kanta’s proposal that the birth time is earlier by either 30 or 35 minutes, it would place the ascendant in the terrible rasi sandhi, the conjunction between two signs, as Shyamasundara Prabhu nicely elaborated. This would hardly give a good basis for a powerful chart. To say that Capricorn ascendant cannot produce any great spiritual teachers, as Nalini Kanta Prabhu stated, is simply not true, for there are examples of great Vaisnavas with ascendant or Moon in Capricorn.
7. With Capricorn rising we avoid the unfortunate position of Saturn and Mars both aspecting the ascendant which would be there with Sagittarius Lagna. While I think that Saturn and Jupiter aspecting the 12th house is a great yogic position (as with Capricorn ascendant ), I think it is less so if the ascendant is aspected the two and Mars, as it would be for Sagittarius rising. I think that an ascendant free from aspects, with its lord exalted in the tenth makes one a great, world-famous personality, known for his remarkable work. While the other one would denote a person with conflicting interests and inner tensions, a person who could hardly have the inner calm, graveness and dignity, which we saw in Srila Prabhupada. Lagna lord in the tenth shows that he is a man of action who is able to engage everyone in practical devotional service and not a man who simply waits for any fortunate outcome of his work. It shows that he is the most merciful devotee who completely dedicates himself to saving the masses of people, the most empowered preacher in history.
For the sake of helping to find the truth and pleasing the learned brahmins I have expressed my personal, worthless opinion on this matter and try to glorify HDG Srila Prabhupada by pointing out briefly a few of the most remarkable aspects of his all-auspicious chart, as I have been asked to comment. I pray that the exalted Vaisnavas may forgive my shortcomings and forgive any deficiency in offering due respect to any of my beloved god brothers, including Nalini Kantha Prabhu, Hrishikeshananda Prabhu and Shyamasundara Prabhu.
Proposal: To resolve such matters in a simple, effective and less time-consuming way, I propose the following:
Since most of our revered seniors who are GBC members have no knowledge of Vedic astrology, may the matter be decided by a reliable full-time astrologer like life-member Ojha in Delhi. He is a learned, sixth generation astrologer who tried to support Iskcon, admires Srila Prabhupada, and is a true friend of the devotees. To my knowledge all of his predictions made so far for devotees have proven to be remarkably correct.
Regarding Nalinikantha’s and Hrishikehananda’s undignified and careless use of words and expressions in connection with Srila Prabhupada’s chart in this debate, I found it painful, for part of it seemed rude. A little more carefulness would be very nice in my humble opinion.
7.3 Sriman Niscintya Prabhu
(Personal biographical information: I joined the movement in Aug. 1972. 1st initiation letter 1973. 2nd initiation letter in 1974. Began studying astrology 1976. I’m a professional astrologer with a wide variety of clients, including celebrities.)
November 8, 1995
Dear Shyamasundara prabhu,
PAMHO AGTSP. Since I am the publisher and copyright owner of the How To Read Your Horoscope book with the Sagittarius rising chart, I thought I would give some of my thoughts on the subject. First and foremost I will start with a short history of the book HTRYH. Nalini prabhu originally was paid to write the book in 4 months (his estimate), but actually completed it 2 years late. I was so fried at the time rather than reading the book for content or proofreading for mistakes, I immediately sent it to the printer. After it was published, although I was passably happy with it in general, (I thought is was a good kindergarten catechism on astrology.) I was greatly disturbed with a number of blemishes.
One of the biggest “blemishes” was his mentioning the controversy on Srila Prabhupada’s chart. Although, at the time, I did not disagree with his Sagittarius rising chart, I was APPALLED by the way he dismissed the Capricorn rising chart. At the time I was unaware of any controversy but his dismissal of the Capricorn rising was EXTREMELY simplistic at best and totally inaccurate at worst. For example: “holy sign of Sagittarius; lower class Capricorn…” No astrologer worth his daksina talks like that! I did not discuss this with Nalini at the time, nor did I study it in depth, but I did not see anything wrong, unholy, lower class, sudra like etc., with the Capricorn rising chart. I remember thinking it had very interesting possibilities. Over the years I was graced on a couple of occasions with the reasoning behind the Capricorn rising chart which were in agreement with my initial brief look at it. I never did an in depth study and for some reason did not favor one chart over the other. They both sounded reasonable on a superficial examination.
Over the years, due to my association with the BBT and BBT Archives, I became quite aware of the fact that Srila Prabhupada himself had used a Capricorn rising chart throughout his life, which had proved quite accurate, (business struggles, travel to America and his passing etc.). Although I still took no sides (it didn’t come up that much), I regularly, when selling or using How To Read Your Horoscope, would point out the flaws in the book. Especially when asked or approached about Nalini’s bashing of the Capricorn rising chart, I never accepted the bashing… it’s poor astrology!
And now to the present. For a number of days I had been praying to Srila Prabhupada with regards to my service, especially in regards to astrology. Then, out of the “blue”, by coincidence or Divine arrangement, I was given a copy of your (Shyamasundara’s) analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s horoscope. I read the entire paper straight through in one sitting and aside from my conclusions which follow, I could not sleep and had the distinct impression that Srila Prabhupada was annoyed with my publishing an inaccurate chart and was giving me a chance to rectify that mistake.
I could not sleep and had the distinct impression that Srila Prabhupada was annoyed with my publishing an inaccurate chart and was giving me a chance to rectify that mistake.
Separate from this feeling, my conclusions as an impartial judge (remember, I published the book and studied under Nalini), of the two analysis, without saying that Nalini is wrong, I would say that he has a lot of research and commentary to make to even come CLOSE to the in-depth study done by your good self, Shymasundara prabhu. Your paper is well written, very well researched, detailed, convincingly accurate etc. Nalini’s five page report, however, is inaccurate (ie: “was born at slightly earlier time”. Half an hour is “slightly earlier?”[it isn't]); simplistic (Capricorn’s a sudra sign, etc.). And while glorifying Srila Prabhupada not nearly as complete as Shymasundara’s. Nalini prabhu’s glorification of Srila Prabhupada is of course very sweet, but almost ANY impartial astrologer, or person well versed in astrology, would HAVE to agree with you, Shyamasundara, at this point in the debate.
If you would like for me to respond on any particular aspect of your discussion, or if the GBC would want a detailed review of your analysis of Srila Prabhupada’s chart, feel free to contact me and I’ll be more than happy to oblige your request.
Your eternal servant,
7.4 Sriman Ratnabahu Prabhu
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 95 02:23 SWT
Sri Sri Guru Gourangau Jayatah!
I have been asked to comment on this issue of Srila Prabhupada’s correct ascendant. As far as I am concerned, Sriman Shyamasundara prabhu has already given a masterful, thorough and convincing argument for Capricorn rising. He has not left much to be said. But because I have been asked to do so, despite my own disqualifications, I will venture to make a comment on Srila Prabhupada’s most auspicious horoscope.
First, some background relative to myself: I was given hari nama diksha and the name “Ratnabahu das” at the 1975 Chicago Rathayatra festival, along with about 74 other young brahmacaris and the instillation of (I think) 8 sets of Gour Nitai deities. I got mantra diksha in Mayapur, at the annual festival, in 1977. Both initiations were by Srila Prabhupada. I started studying jyotisha, or Vedic astrology in 1984 in a casual way. By 1986 I was seriously studying and passed a correspondence course from The American Institute For Vedic Studies in 1989.
Let it be said at the outset that I have great respect for Sriman Nalini Kantha prabhu, who really introduced me to jyotish. After reading his presentation, however, it is my opinion that his arguments for Sagittarius ascendant are superficial, inconclusive, and not able to stand up against Shyamasundara’s more rigorous and scholarly exposition. Shyamasundara has exhibited a level of astrological maturity and insight that I can only admire.
What follows are a few of my own observations:
1)Firstly, I fully concur with Sriman Hari-sauri and Shyamasundara Prabhus when they argue the necessity of not changing Prabhupada’s birth time if in fact the chart erected for the time he gave adequately explains the observable reality of his life. And Capricorn ascendant definitely shows the greatness of Srila Prabhupada.
2)A basic rule of jyotish regarding signs in general is that their particular modalities will express themselves on the various areas of life they influence. The modalities are movable (chara), fixed (sthira) and mutable (dvishabhava). According to Sarvatha Cintamani 2.90:
lagna care tad bhavane svare va
carasthite sa carati prajatah
If the sign on the ascendant is a movable (chara) one, or if its lord is in a movable sign, the native will be mostly on the move.
In my mind, Capricorn, a movable sign, better fits Srila Prabhupada, who moved around a fair bit before coming to America, but after establishing ISKCON, traversed the globe at least 12 times, preaching, inspiring, opening centers, farms etc. And all this in only 12 years. He was constantly traveling. Even at the point when he was critically ill, he still desired to travel and preach! The ruler of Capricorn, Saturn is also exalted in the movable sign of Libra. So two factors affecting the ascendant (representing Srila Prabhupada and his general orientation in life) are influenced by movable signs. If a movable sign is on the ascendant, then the other 3 angles of the chart by necessity will be movable. Planetary influences not withstanding, this generally gives the person concerned a very cardinal nature—positive, outgoing, energetic, and active with a high sense of achievement and accomplishment. Srila Prabhupada would often display a transcendental pride in how his ISKCON movement had successfully expanded in only a few short years, with so many books translated into so many languages and so many centers and disciples.
Sagittarius ascendant itself is a mutable, or common sign which would give much less movement, and when you consider that its ruler, Jupiter is in a fixed sign, then it is not quite in line with what we saw of Srila Prabhupada. This point takes on weight when considered along with the totality of other evidence for Capricorn rising. [We should like to add that while Sagittarius and the 9th house are both houses of travel, it doesn't indicate travel as much as a movable sign rising and Ascendant lord in a movable sign.]
I feel that Shyamasundara has more than adequately refuted the Sagittarius rising argument, leaving little else to be said.
3) With Sagittarius Lagna 72% of the horoscope’s planetary influences are in cadent - apoklima), or hidden houses. Although cadent planets are sensitive and therefore generally favorable for spiritual life, because planets here are weak, indecisive and hidden in their action, they cannot be helpful for a person to start a successful world-wide preaching institution. The person would more likely be unstable, insecure, prone to nervous or mental weaknesses and probably more inclined to be reclusive, solitary and generally more concerned with his own spiritual practice.
With Makara Lagna, 72% of the planetary forces go to the succedent houses (panaparas), and are stronger than cadent planets. This gives more reserve, stability and the ability to accumulate resources. These planets are much better for maintaining a huge institution. This, taken in conjunction with the exalted and angular position of the Ascendant lord is much more befitting the samsthapakacarya of ISKCON. Again, this argument in itself is not conclusive, but when viewed in relation to the other factors presented in favor of Capricorn rising, it becomes significant.
4) Shyamasundara prabhu has demonstrated how Ketu was competent to cause death in its period, if we consider Capricorn was rising in Prabhupada’s chart. This would not have been the case if Sagittarius were rising. There are standard rules for these things in jyotish. Srila Prabhupada left the world in Ketu dasa, Mercury bhukti. Ketu is a maraka (death-dealing planet) by virtue of being in the house of death along with its lord, Ravi. It is also in degree conjunction with Guru, a malefic lord for Makara Lagna, ruling the 12th house of loss and exit from the world. Even in the navamsa, or harmonic 9th chart, Ketu is in the 2nd house, another marakasthana, along with Mercury, a strong maraka planet for the navamsa chart.
Because the maraka period was running (Ketu Mahadasa), the planetary sub period, along with transits of key planets, become critical with reference to timing death. Mercury sub period was on when Srila Prabhupada left us. Mercury resides in the 2nd house (a death dealing house) relative to Ketu, and gets potential maraka power; we have already mentioned above how Mercury’s marakatva is enhanced by it situation in navamsa as lord of 7 in 2. Mercury resides in the lunar mansion of the Moon, a maraka itself by virtue of its 7th house rulership. Relative to Ketu the Moon rules the 12th house of loss and exit from the world. All these points become relevant if Ketu, the major planetary ruler indicates death. Otherwise, if Sagittarius is rising, Ketu has no death dealing influence and the question of these lesser factors does not arise.
5) Another very significant point is the fact that if the ascendant of the chart is 29 degs. 47 mins. of Sagittarius, the entire horoscope is ruined due to the serious flaw called rashi sandhi, or being placed at the junction of two signs. The ascendant is the pivot, or most crucial point of the chart. If it is strong, then whatever weak planetary combinations may exist in the chart get toned down accordingly while strong planetary yogas get full opportunity for expression. Shyamasundara has adequately pointed out this flaw, along with the flaw of the ascendant lord (Jupiter) being eclipsed by Ketu in exact degree conjunction. Please see Chapter 3 section 3.2 of his argument. This was one of my first doubts about the Sagittarius chart.
There are many other points that could be examined relative to this issue,but as I said earlier, I feel that Shyamasundara has more than adequately refuted the Sagittarius rising argument, leaving little else to be said, other than more astrological details. In conclusion, I would like to say that as a professional astrologer, I have examined the arguments on both sides, have studied both charts myself and have concluded that Srila Prabhupada was without doubt born under Capricorn ascendant. I summarize my reasons for this:
1) Srila Prabhupada was conversant enough with jyotish to understand the importance of accurate birth times; he consistently gave 4:00 p.m. as his time of birth and the resulting horoscope erected for the time adequately describes the reality of his life. Therefore the need for chart rectification (altering the time where the exact time is uncertain) does not arise.
2) Shyamasundara prabhu has pointed out in numerous examples how the Sagittarius rising chart does not fit the observable reality of our guru maharaj’s life. It is a glaring flaw on Nalini Kanta’s part that he has not demonstrated how the planetary periods in the Sagittarius chart support Srila Prabhupada’s life events. This in itself would clinch the issue in the minds of most astrologers. The Capricorn rising chart clearly demonstrates the accuracy of the birth time.
It is a glaring flaw on Nalini Kanta’s part that he has not demonstrated how the planetary periods in the Sagittarius chart support Srila Prabhupada’s life events.
In closing I would like to say that while holding the views that I do, I maintain no animosity or ill-feeling whatsoever toward Sriman Nalini Kantha prabhu (or anyone else holding opposing views to my own in this matter), whom I see as a sincere devotee trying to glorify Srila Prabhupada in his own way. I consider him a friend and am only exercising my individual insight and observation in this matter. I feel it of utmost importance that the true horoscope of Srila Prabhupada come to light for the sake of history and I sincerely feel the Capricorn chart to be accurate and correct, while the Sagittarius chart, though impressive at first glance, is flawed in several ways as pointed out by Shyamasundara prabhu and others.
I pray to all the sincere Vaisnavas for their kind glance and hope that none have been offended by anything said herein.
Yours in service,
Ratnabahu das Adhikary
7.5 Sriman Bhaktivinode Thakur Prabhu
Dear GBC Members
Please, accept my most humble obeisances . . . All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
My name is Bhaktivinode Thakur dasa, a disciple of Srila Harikesa Maharaja. I formally joined ISKCON in 1986 in Poland and was initiated in 1988. I started to study western astrology in 1985, but gave it up after one year. I considered it a huge speculation based on the remnants of the old and forgotten tradition. I was waiting until I find a source of a bona fide Vedic astrology to further my studies. I have got a book written by HG Nalini Kanta Prabhu How To Read Your Horoscope - The Basics of a Bona Fide Astrology, in the very beginning of 1988. Since that time I have been studying astrology from numerous books from India, and with casual help and assistance of HH Prahladananda Swami, HG Nalini Kanta Prabhu, HG Bhudhara Prabhu, and HG Shyamasundara Prabhu. My relation with HG Shyamasundara Prabhu is most fruitful as I am also a member of his Link-Com conference about Jyotisha. Beside studying Vedic astrology I have been also teaching the basics of Vedic Vaisnava philosophy and astrology in a New Age school for three last years.
I have been asked by HG Shyamasundara Prabhu and also by HG Hrsikesananda Prabhu to write a report for the GBC concerning Srila Prabhupada’s birth chart. It is especially connected with a controversy between two proposed charts (Capricorn and Saggitarius rising signs) that were presented by HG Shyamasundara Prabhu and HG Nalini Kanta Prabhu. I have read the two reports and would like to make some comments. I will not go into technical area of the charts as these were sufficiently dealt with already. I will try to share with some of my experiences of practicing astrologer and a teacher that might be valuable in judging this case.
I would like to humbly suggest that it is one thing to have a sincere desire to glorify Srila Prabhupada and another it to master the tool by which one wants to do it. For example there might be an effort to sing some song in the temple for the pleasure of the Deities, but one can do it by singing a proper or improper song, with a proper or improper melody, etc. Thus here we should rather judge a quality of an astrological skill and work of the two devotees. The chart should reflect the glories and life events of Srila Prabhupada. But there are tools of different difficulty in mastering them. Astrology is a very complex one, just like it is difficult to master Sanskrit language. One can do it on levels of an amateur, student, western scholar who doesn’t understand Vedic philosophy, Indian Sanskrit scholar who knows Vedic literature and philosophy, but it might be also of the quality of HDG Jiva Gosvami in his Sat-sandarbhas. We should keep it in mind while approaching Vedic astrology.
One can have some doubts if it is at all possible to make a judgment. Is really astrology applying to the devotees and especially pure devotees, or what to speak of Krsna? These are valid questions that should also be answered by referring to Srila Prabhupada’s books and his other teachings. Those of you who have some doubts like that might ask HG Shyamasundara Prabhu to deliver a complete set of quotes from the sources on that subject. For now I would like to append a quote from Srimad Bhagavatam 1.12.12:
Thereupon, when all the good signs of the zodiac gradually evolved, the heir apparent of Pandu, who would be exactly like him in prowess, took birth.
Astronomical calculations of stellar influences upon a living being are not suppositions, but are factual, as confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Every living being is controlled by the laws of nature at every minute, just as a citizen is controlled by the influence of the state. The state laws are grossly observed, but the laws of material nature, being subtle to our gross understanding, cannot be experienced grossly. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (3.9), every action of life produces another reaction, which is binding upon us, and only those who are acting on behalf of Yajna (Visnu) are not bound by reactions. Our actions are judged by the higher authorities, the agents of the Lord, and thus we are awarded bodies according to our activities. The law of nature is so subtle that every part of our body is influenced by the respective stars, and a living being obtains his working body to fulfill his terms of imprisonment by the manipulation of such astronomical influence. A man’s destiny is therefore ascertained by the birthtime constellation of stars, and a factual horoscope is made by a learned astrologer. It is a great science, and misuse of a science does not make it useless. Maharaja Pariksit or even the Personality of Godhead appear in certain constellations of good stars, and thus the influence is exerted upon the body thus born at an auspicious moment. The most auspicious constellation of stars takes place during the appearance of the Lord in this material world, and it is specifically called jayanti, a word not to be abused for any other purposes. Maharaja Pariksit was not only a great ksatriya emperor, but also a great devotee of the Lord. Thus he cannot take his birth at any inauspicious moment. As a proper place and time is selected to receive a respectable personage, so also to receive such a personality as Maharaja Pariksit, who was especially cared for by the Supreme Lord, a suitable moment is chosen when all good stars assembled together to exert their influence upon the King. Thus he took his birth just to be known as the great hero of Srimad-Bhagavatam. This suitable arrangement of astral influences is never a creation of man’s will, but is the arrangement of the superior management of the agency of the Supreme Lord. Of course, the arrangement is made according to the good or bad deeds of the living being. Herein lies the importance of pious acts performed by the living being. Only by pious acts can one be allowed to get good wealth, good education and beautiful features. . . .”
From that quote we see that we have to respect the time of appearance of such great souls like Srila Prabhupada. A horoscope made by a learned astrologer on the basis of such respected birth time should reveal Srila Prabhupada’s activities. Also we read that ”this suitable arrangement of astral influences is never a creation of man’s will, but is the arrangement of the superior management of the agency of the Supreme Lord”. Just like the words of Guru are respected as they carry the transcendental message not to be gained in any other way, similarly we should respect a knowledge about Guru’s appearance given by Himself.
In my astrological practice I have found that people don’t understand the importance of the exact time of birth. That’s why about 50% of people who contacted me didn’t know the exact time of birth. Or were giving me wrong time due to some mistake of the parents, their own bad memory, etc. Therefore before I agree to look into somebody’s chart I strongly insist that he should do everything possible to check the actual time of birth. Otherwise it is just a great speculation on the part of astrologer. It is because in our culture there is no tradition of using astrology. Thus for example doctors of one devotee here in Poland changed his time of birth to the previous day because they considered it would be more auspicious if he takes birth in the day presided over by one of Christian saints! Not only doctors, but also some neophyte astrologers who don’t understand the position of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as the Time factor, tend to speculate about people’s time of birth before they try to check all possible sources of such information. There are some books containing hundreds of charts of some historical persons. Times of birth are not authentic there (difficult to get, especially in the West), but are speculated on the basis of very superficial assumptions that could be made only by uneducated and inexperienced people trying to be astrologers.
Knowing that from my experience (and my own mistakes), I purposefully introduced into my astrology lessons in the school a procedure of finding unknown time of birth. I have done it not to actually teach them that, but to give them experience how difficult it is. And how great speculation is involved if one doesn’t know what he is doing. That’s when they understood how limited their abilities are.
For example, I was giving them a date of birth of John Paul II (they know him well, he is Polish) and ordered to find out a time of birth. You get 12 basic charts a day (I mean 12 ascending signs of the zodiac) and they had to analyse them and show the proper one. Usually everybody went into wide ocean of speculation and couldn’t get the point. See the higher level of difficulty. Here you have to choose only Sagittarius or Capricorn. But they had to choose from 12 charts!
Another exercise of even higher difficulty involved two personalities widely known in karmi world: Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin. They were born on the same day, but on different continents and at different time of the day. Here the students had to match two charts out of 12 to two life pictures of those men. Very difficult!
The procedure requires that you have to know a lot of details from their life: dates, events, characteristics, qualities, actions, failures and accomplishments. From many spheres of life. And then you have to analyse all the charts from many points of view. It’s a lot of work! But it is a typical part of education of an astrologer. But it is also an advanced techinque. It is not sufficient to only check few basic elements. Astrology is complex as the life is complex. Otherwise it could not function.
1. We should respect the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in his form of Kala (time) that allowed us to get unlimited benefit of associating with Srila Prabhupada by his appearance amongst us. It does not only include his birth, but also life events that lead him to come to the West to save us. His time of birth should be respected as it is an integral part of his life of a great devotee of the Lord and a preacher of unlimited capacity.
2. Srila Prabhupada’s own testimony on the time of his birth is final and any efforts to undermine his own opinion are not proper. In our parampara we see other great acaryas - astrologers like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. The grandfather of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was also predicting his future, and Srila Bhaktivinode himself was acquainted with the science to some extent. It is difficult to expect that Srila Prabhupada would not take any interest in that subject when so many of his predecessors did. Many references about astrology and astronomy in his books, lectures, letters and conversations indicate it clearly. Also as a person coming from a Indian culture had to consult with astrologers and had to know the time of his birth.
3. If the time of Srila Prabhupada’s birth wouldn’t be known exactly then we could start speculate and try to find out a proper time of birth.
A. In such a case the chart submitted by HG Shyamasundara Prabhu is brilliant and completely satisfying the mind of an astrologer. I mean here not only general interpretation, but especially a detailed study of all inherent strengths and weaknesses (like family life, etc.). Also his presentation of planetary periods and their connection with Prabhupada’s life events is impressive. I would say it was a good lesson of astrology. His comparative study of the Capricorn and Sagittarius charts is very solid, detailed and based on sastric principles. I completely agree with his opinion on that matter.
B. Arguments of HG Nalini Kanta Prabhu for changing Srila Prabhupada’s time of birth are based on unsubstantial assumptions. I mean both his attempt to question Prabhupada’s opinion on that subject and astrological tools used by him. The tools were invalid (as shown by Shyamasundara, Nalini made several basic mistakes in the art) and the way he used them was also improper (he mainly tried to emotionally impress his own idea on others, instead of performing an impartial analysis based on proper astrological principles).
At the end I would like to mention that I initially learned some basic elements of astrology from HG Nalini Kanta’s book. Thus I feel indebted to him for introducing me into that science. But later I had to refuse some of the principles I learned from him after comparing his teaching with standard books on astrology written by the acaryas like Parasara and Varaha Mihira. It is especially related to his method of calculating planetary periods, connection of zodiacal signs with the varnas, and a very simplistic approach to very complex astrological problems. Initially I have also learned from him that Srila Prabhupada has Sagittarius rising. But after some time of studying and receiving some informations about a proper time of birth of Prabhupada I changed my opinion. Now I completely accept Capricorn chart as the only proper one.
Thank You for allowing me to serve you.
Your humble servant
Bhaktivinode Thakur dasa
7.6 Sriman Sadhusanga Prabhu
(His resume is at end.)
November 7, 1995
Dear Shyamasundara prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I was never really aware of the whole controversy around the actual birth time of Srila Prabhupada until recently (the last few years), but after studying your essay, I would like to make a statement of total support and agreement on Srila Prabhupada’s horoscope.
I remember when I first got a copy of Nalini Prabhu’s book, The Basics of Bonafide Astrology, I looked at the cover and noticed a chart cast for Srila Prabhupada. The first thing that struck my mind was: “You know, he’s right on the cusp with Sagittarius at 29 degrees. If it would be Capricorn instead, then we’d be looking at a powerful 5th house with exalted Moon and 4th lord Mars, a tremendously powerful raja-yoga in the 9th with Mercury and Venus, and an exalted Saturn in the 10th. Now this would be the chart of a ‘world teacher’, spreading spiritual knowledge! Maybe there was a mistake? No…, no one would print a ‘mistake’ on the cover of a book!”
A couple years latter, when I was working for the BBT Archives in Los Angeles, I came across Prabhupada’s birth time, (4:00 pm.) while I was doing some cross-referencing work. My suspicions where confirmed that Nalini prabhu must have made a ‘mistake’ in his book and that Srila Prabhupada had Capricorn rising. Then, I hunted down the actual recorded conversations with the astrologer in Prabhupada’s room that were made during the last days of Srila Prabhupada’s life. It was clear that the readings being done for Srila Prabhupada where based on a Capricorn ascendant and NOT a Sagittarius ascendant.
Since my “discovery” of Srila Prabhupada’s real birth time, I’ve often been obsessed with studying His Divine Grace’s chart for hours at a time. “How can he say Sagittarius is rising?” I would ask myself. Even though I’m certainly not a jyotish pundit or a professional astrologer, for the past 15 years I’ve always took Vedic astrology seriously and tried to read any book on the subject I could find. With what little I know, even I can see that Srila Prabhupada must have had Capricorn rising.
I feel that your analysis of the 8th house, (and the working viparita raja-yoga there) is the clincher. Now, even idiots like me can see what the raja-yoga combination of Venus and Mercury in the 9th is doing to enhance the overall literary skills and devotional make-up of Srila Prabhupada, and what exalted Saturn in the 10th has done for Srila Prabhupada’s being an international figure and “conquering the world” with his books. But the strength of this 8th house, it makes for a real mystic, a saint, a liberated soul that is beyond our comprehension. Being able to analyze the “difficult” houses such as the 6th, 8th and 12th only comes with experience and mature judgment, a qualification that everyone would agree you have. One can’t use the “simplistic” approach all the time and expect to get “results”, as Nalini prabhu may propose.
The big thing that strikes me is Ketu, the natural indicator of liberation, moksa karaka, is with the 12th lord Jupiter and 8th lord Sun in the 8th. So we see 2 moksa lords in a moksa house with the moksa karaka Ketu. Combine this with the powerful Viparita raja-yoga you have explained and what is the conclusion? Is this the configuration of a “worldly man”? NO. It’s a combination of someone who is of Srila Prabhupada’s caliber. Sagittarius rising doesn’t create such a combination. Your analysis of the 8th house totally supports the position of Capricorn rising.
Like I said, I’m not so expert at knowing all sorts of yoga’s and rules and guidelines of astrology, but, I think it’s clear, even from an amateurs point of view, that Srila Prabhupada has the sign of Capricorn rising. As every house and planetary position is analyzed in the Capricorn chart carefully, we can see that it all points to an individual of deep mysticism and devotion, scholarly abilities and powerful influence all over the world. The Sagittarius rising chart is good, but weak at best for someone of the caliber of Srila Prabhupada. We have to establish once and for all, without a doubt, that Srila Prabhupada has Capricorn rising in his chart. Like you said in your essay, scholars of the future will look at His Divine Grace’s chart and judge his works, ISKCON and his overall creditability by the structure of his natal horoscope. I personally think that Nalini prabhu realizes his error but can’t come to public admission because of embarrassment and personal pride. If he could somehow or other come to publicly state his shortcomings and support that Capricorn is rising, it would be the BEST service he could render to his Guru Maharaja and his god-brothers.
P.S. One other personal comment I would like to add concerning Nalini’s analysis technique. (This comment is not directed to Shyamasundara prabhu, but is a general comment on Nalini prabhu and his interpretation style).
One basic interpretation technique that Nalini prabhu uses often is the technique of judging an individual’s caste and dharmic activity based on the concentration of planets in particular houses. For example: The 1st, 5th, and 9th houses are dharma houses. A concentration of planets in these houses would suggest an individual who is dedicated to religious duty, philanthropic works, higher education etc.
With all due respect to Nalini prabhu, he always seems to attach superficial concepts to a house without deep analysis. For example: “Oh, the 10th house is an artha house (economic development), so this native is into economic development because this house is so powerful. Can’t you see prabhu, it’s fundamental… you know? Let’s stick to fundamentals before we go on to ‘advanced’ interpretation.” At this point, let me just add one consideration of analysis that I don’t believe I saw in Shyamasundara’s essay. Using Nalini’s OWN standards of analysis, consider the following:
For Sagittarius rising we would have:
3 planets are in dharma houses (piety, religiousness, duty etc.)
4 planets are in artha houses (economic development)
2 planets are in kama houses (desire), and
NO PLANETS are in moksa houses (liberation).
For Capricorn rising we would have:
4 planets are in dharma houses (piety, religiousness, duty etc.)
2 planets are in artha houses (economic development)
NO planets are in kama houses (desire), and
3 planets are in moksa houses (liberation)!
Now, using the ‘simplistic’ approach to astrology that Nalini prabhu has
proposed, we may predict the personality of the one with this Sagittarius
rising chart as an individual who is:
A) pious (3 planets in dharma houses)
B) VERY much expert and attached to economic development (4 planets in artha houses)
C) somewhat attached to sense gratification (2 planets in kama houses) and
D) not so much concerned about “liberation” at all (no planets in moksa houses).
Does this profile fit the personality of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada? I THINK NOT.
Now, we can predict the personality of the one with this Capricorn rising as
an individual who is:
A) VERY pious and aware of the ‘laws of God and man’ (4 planets in dharma houses)
B) somewhat expert and interested in economic development (2 planets in artha houses)
C) not so much interested in sense gratification at all (NO planets in kama houses) and
D) VERY concerned and interested in liberation and solving the real problems of this material existence (3 planets in moksa houses).
Now does THIS fit the profile of Srila Prabhupada? I most certainly think so!
So, even using Nalini prabhu’s “simple” approach to analyzing a chart, we can see that Srila Prabhupada has Capricorn rising.
Sadhusanga’s devotional and astrological resume:
1B) I became involved with Krsna Consciousness in 1974 (age 20). By 1976 I joined the New York temple, participated in the first Rathayatra festival there, met Srila Prabhupada and even was blessed to go on a morning walk one time with His Divine Grace. I was fully involved until 1978 with New York. I never had the opportunity to become a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada. After completing college etc., I again became a full-time member of ISKCON around 1987. I took initiation from Kavicandra Swami in 1988, and 2nd initiation in 1992.
2B) I’ve been interested in astrology since my teen years, but took to Vedic astrology around 1978 when I had a "Hindu" chart done for me from a man in Sri Lanka. From 1980-85 I was a passive student but in 1985 or so I discovered the "Boddi Tree Book Store" and their extensive texts on Eastern astrology. At that time I became a "serious" student.
3B) My level of interest in on the subject of Vedic astrology is about as high as you can get. Even though I may play myself down publicly, I feel I understand most of the concepts of jyotish astrology well. I had no problem keeping up with your essay and the arguments you presented.
4B) I’ve never read charts professionally because I don’t feel I have the braminical qualifications to do so. I’m not trained properly and I don’t want the karma of giving the wrong advice to someone. If a friend approaches me for astrological help, I will give it to the best of my ability… but that’s it. I’ll let them know up front that I’m not a professional, but if they want professional advice, they can contact someone like your good self.
7.7 Sriman Svayambhuva Prabhu
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 95 16:42
Dear Shyamasundara Prabhu,
Thank you for posting text related to Srila Prabhupadas supposed Lagna. I read both sides with great interest.
Some of my data: Svayambhuva das, disciple of Harikesa Swami. Joined in former Soviet in 1979, got second initiation in 1985. Studied astrology under the guidance of Sri Ram Prabhu, also about that time. Was very active in that field before, but recent 2-3 years was busy with other studies. Still, keep the knowledge alive by occasional consultations . . .
Now all said and done, I read first the presentation of Nalini-Kanta Prabhu. I took no sides and read objectively. Short as it was, and easy to read, from the first look I liked it. It will undoubtedly appeal to someone not acquainted with astrology. Furthermore, because it deals with the very basic principles, it will impress even someone who got some basics on the subject.
Then I read your explanations. Well, first of all, you did a whole lot of work! Sheer volume is quite astounding. Then, further I read, the more it become obvious that Nalini-Kantha Prabhu’s logic does not hold. In my opinion, after reading your presentation, there should be no doubt about the Lagna of Srila Prabhupada’s birth.
If you kindly let me to drop my 2 paisa worth of a comment, I did not notice that you've mentioned the following. In case we assume Lagna to be in Capricorn, exalted Saturn ends in the 10th house. With all the strong sides connected to exaltation, still due to the inherent nature of the planet it will manifest all those good sides LATER in life. And that essentially what was unfolding in the real story of Srila Prabhupada. Taking Sagittarius as Lagna, it [Saturn] ends in 11th house and that, although not excluding completely the possibility, still would not fit the reality as nicely.
And last but not least, for me the most convincing argument was that Srila Prabhupada’s glory was foreseen by an astrologer at the time of his birth. This astrologer was obviously using 4 P.M. And the astrologer who correctly predicted the time of death did so based on that same moment. That alone should suffice.
I hope that my opinion, for all it worth, will support you in the pursuit of that wonderful craft which is Vedic astrology.
Please keep up the good work.
Sriman K.N. Rao
Others Astrologers have also opined that Srila Prabhupada had a Makara Lagna.
K.N. Rao is currently the most senior and well-known astrologer in India. In his book Learn Successful Predictive Techniques of Hindu Astrology, K.N. Rao dedicates the whole of chapter 8 to rectifying Srila Prabhupada’s chart based on a lengthy list of life events. He concludes that Prabhupada had to have a Makara Lagna.